Cat: Welcome to the Broad Beta Podcast. My name is Cat, and I'll be hosting today with Broad Beta co-founder Jeannie Wall. Our guest on this episode is Brette Harrington. Brette needs little introduction. She does it all extremely well. Her resume includes groundbreaking solos, 13+ trad climbs, and mind-boggling alpine and winter climbs. Not to mention ski descents, big walls, and hard sport climbs. Only her heart and dedication to excellence match her versatility in the mountains. As you'll hear today, Brette has undergone physical and mental hardships on her path to becoming one of the best all-around climbers of her generation.
From numerous concussions and breaking her neck as a skier, to losing her life and climbing partner Marc-Andre Leclerc, Brette has dug deep more than once to come back stronger than before. She is a true visionary and yet still down-to-earth and relatable. Her ability to articulate what drives her and what she has been through made this one of our most inspiring interviews to date.
So without further ado, let's welcome Brette Harrington.
Brette: I grew up in Lake Tahoe, California. Well, actually, I grew up on the Nevada side, but Tahoe is split down the centerline, and most everything, like the towns, are on the California side. So a lot of our friends were living in California. So it's like I grew up on the Nevada side, but it felt like California in a way. And my parents got me into ski racing at five years old, and I was the youngest kid on the team. It was me and this other kid, Austin, and his parents were the head coaches, and everybody else was two years older than us. So we just had to ski really hard to keep up, and it was a really competitive program with these wild kids.
Jeannie: At five years old?
Brette: Yeah, I was five years old.
Cat: And were there other girls in the program?
Brette: At that point, my sister was in the program. My cousin's, Selena and Margo, they were both in the program. So, we were all staggered because of our age differences, except I was with Austin and Margo because they were two years older.
And it's funny, I was just home for Christmas this year talking with my mom, and she was telling me how competitive I was. And I, in my mind, wasn't competitive. I was just passionate. I loved it more than anything. And she's like, you were so competitive. You had to out-ski all your siblings because you were the littlest one. And I didn't see it that way. It's funny. She saw me that way.
But yeah, skiing was my first passion, and I was obsessive as a kid. When ski season ended, I just remember crying because I missed it. And because I started really young, I was really good because we didn't have other competitors. So I would be racing against five other little girls or six other little girls, and I tended to win. And then as I got older, the girls started getting stronger and more people started coming in. And I realized I was quite small, and I just didn't have it in me, but I didn't quite realize it.
My mom realized it early on, and she, one year after a ski race, I was really upset because I didn't get the place that I wanted. I had been used to getting first, right? And my mom was in the car with me, and she said, Well, Brette, it's not like you're going to the Olympics or anything. I was like, What? I was so crushed by that comment because that was my dream. I was like an Olympic prodigy, or that was what I really wanted to do. And she basically told me that that wasn't in the cards for me. And so I stopped ski racing at age 14, but I do think that was a huge part of my upbringing and my first passion in life.
Cat: So I guess I assumed you were still racing when you broke your neck.
Brette: No, at 14, I switched to slope style. So, yeah, I was just like not competing well anymore. And I realized that I was just not at the level of these other superstar competitors. And so I switched to slope style, which I was okay at, but I tended to fall and hit my head. Like a lot of people, when they fall, they can self-arrest quite well, or like they'll break their arm or something. But I always hit my head. So I ended up getting a bunch of concussions. But I still really liked it. I didn't realize how serious concussions were at the time. And I did slope style from 14 to when I was 21. And when I was somewhere around like 20 or 21, that's when I broke my neck. Not in competition, just I did a spin. I hit a jump in the back country and didn't land right. And my head went one way and my shoulders went the other, and I just tomahawked. And yeah, I broke my neck at that point.
Jeannie: Were you in a brace or something for a long time?
Brette: Yeah, I dislocated the C1, C2, and I got a hairline fracture in the C4, and then I sprained the joints from the C4 to C7. So it wasn't like I didn't do anything. It was, it was bad, but it wasn't like the worst it could be.
But I did have a lot of crepitus, which is where the bones are rubbing against each other. And so I was going to this rehab facility in Vancouver. I was living in Vancouver at the time, and they did a realignment of my Atlas vertebrae, which is the C1, because it's so, so sensitive with the spinal cord.
So they send shockwaves through it because they can't manipulate it with anything physical. So over the course of like five or six weeks, they just, I'd go in there a couple of times a week and they'd send shockwaves through my neck to realign it. And then I have really serious decompressed or compressed vertebrae still, so I have degeneration.
She said I look like I was like a 70-year-old who has had multiple whiplashes.
Jeannie: Do you hang in gravity boots now?
Brette: I always use belay glasses, and I do have a lot of problems with my neck. But it's something I'm constantly dealing with. After every day of climbing, I have to stretch, before every day of climbing, I stretch, and I have all these interesting stretches that I don't see anybody else doing for necks.
Jeannie: And in all that time, you never were exposed to climbing?
Brette: Oh, I was. Yeah, I was climbing a lot during that time. Yeah.
Jeannie: Maybe rewind to when climbing came into the skiing life.
Brette: Okay. So my trajectory was skiing. So when I was 15, I was first exposed to climbing outdoors. I really wanted to be a climber growing up, but I didn't know anybody else who was in it. And then I moved to New Hampshire when I was 16, and I joined a team. But I was so new to it, and I loved it, but skiing was still my driving force. And so I joined a team where we climb every day in the fall. It was like my fall sport.
We'd go to Grumney, and my coach was super supportive of me. I wouldn't say I was the strongest, but he could tell that I loved it a lot. And after my second year on the team, he gave me one of the ropes, and he told me to just keep climbing.
And I was applying for university at that point, so I was graduating, and I really wanted to be sure I could climb somewhere that I was going to be living. And I went to the University of British Columbia, and Squamish is super close by. And I remember talking to my high school climbing coach about Squamish, and he's like, oh, it's incredible, and Mount Slesse is nearby. He was the first person to tell me about Mount Slesse. So, yeah, climbing, I fell in love with it, but I still really felt like my identity was in skiing.
Jeannie: How did breaking your neck affect your mind and body…what happened after that? Did that change your plans?
Brette: Yeah, and also the concussions. So I had many concussions with skiing, and one of the concussions I had, it wasn't the worst one, but I think it impacted me the worst. I lost my personality, and I couldn't feel emotion for months.
I didn’t speak Spanish, so I studied Spanish and I was in Spanish in university. But I couldn't speak it. I couldn't really think.
And I didn't really understand what was going on at the time. I thought I was in some kind of a stupor, but at the same time, that's when I broke my neck, and the lady who was realigning my neck was also a concussion specialist. And she didn't know that I had these concussions until I started talking to her about it.
And she helped me put the two together. And so I think I was really depressed because of the implications that were aligned with the concussions.
Cat: I think that's really common with concussions, depression and anxiety because of really confusing symptoms.
Brette: Yeah. Yeah. I tried to go see a therapist and she was looking into my past and family problems and I'm like, I don't think I have family problems. I'm just depressed.
Cat: You have reduced blood flow to your brain.
Brette: Yeah. Inflammation and swelling, that lasted. So the last concussion I got was in midwinter, like maybe February. And then it wasn't until April that I started feeling better. And I went to Zion that year and Indian Creek. And that's about when I started to feel a lot better.
And then I made a conscious decision to stop skiing. And I went many years just, I would hardly ski. I just dedicated myself to rock climbing and I made it my goal to be the best rock climber I could be.
I realized that skiing was just not healthy for me anymore. That was hard. That was a really hard decision for me to make.
Jeannie: That's impressive. How many siblings do you have, Brette?
Brette: Two.
Jeannie: Two. I mean, you're the youngest, but you obviously had so much drive to focus. I mean, was that because your dad just threw you into racing at five?
Or do you have any sense of why that kind of desire to just completely focus on something happened to you at such a young age?
Brette: My dad is really type A personality. He decided he wanted to be a dentist when he was nine years old, and made it his goal. And he is just super diligent. And I feel like I have a lot of him in me. But I chose to turn that towards my sports.
Cat: Do you have any injuries from climbing? It sounds like you left skiing because of the injuries.
Brette: Yeah.
Cat: You found that climbing has been more kind to your body.
Brette: So much better on my body. It's very rare that I get seriously injured climbing. I split my face open once from a rock, and I had 30 stitches right in my face.
Yeah, I had a hole that went straight through my lip. It was crazy. And then the guy that's stitching me up, no one can tell, but it's there.
Cat: Amazing.
Jeannie: I know. Somebody did a really good job.
Brette: Right there. But looking at the pictures, sometimes I show some friends the photos, and they're like, what in the world? Because I had a gaping hole in my face.
So that was a crazy one. I tore my shoulder in 2019. But I could still climb I just had to modify my climbing style.
Jeannie: You never had surgery.
Brette: I never had surgery. It was on the cusp. They said I could have surgery, or I could try and just do self-rehab.
And as I thought about the recovery time from surgery, it was a six-month process, and I decided to just go for it myself. And actually, my shoulder is doing really well. I hardly notice it anymore.
Jeannie: Good for you. I had three surgeries and then tore one out again. And then I've rehabbed it without a fourth, and it's great. But I think sometimes, yeah, you have to be careful. When you talk to surgeons, they want to cut you open. But you can do a lot of rehab on shoulders if it's not fully torn. But you've definitely still had some pretty big hits with climbing. But if we back up one more time, and I think it sounds like you went to university knowing you wanted to climb. And then how did that go in terms of meeting Mark at some point and then you really got into it.
Brette: So I was living in Vancouver, my first year of university, I didn't have a car and I felt stuck. But I did do a ton of hitchhiking. My friends and I would just take the city buses to West Vancouver and then hitchhike up the Cedars guide to get to Whistler and then go to Squamish.
I was 19 years old. I didn't really know how hard I could push myself, and I took some scary falls.
I remember falling with him and whipping up, taking an upside down whipper. And I remember his girlfriend describing the fall to me. Like, I looked like a ragdoll, and I was like, oh my gosh, this is quite dangerous.
And it was my first time trad climbing, and I climbed, I want to say it was like a 5'8 chimney, and it was so scary, because I didn't know how to place any of this gear. And I placed one nut on the whole pitch, because I didn't know what to do. And at the top, I was topping out, and it was muddy. And I remember just like, I'm not religious at all, but I was like, please, God, let me survive this moment. I made it to the top, and I was so gripped. Yeah, so that was my first time.
Cat: Did you ever have someone show you how to do trad climbing? You were like, I'll just do this. I'll just try this.
Brette: Yeah, well, I had seconded trad climbing back in high school with my coaches, but rarely. I think I did like three or four trad climbs with them.
Jeannie: That explains a lot to me.
Cat: Me too.
Brette: Oh, okay.
Jeannie: Well, not the religious experience, but I mean, I think the fact that you sort of were forced to lead so young, and tons of it right in a row. I mean, you had time there during school and stuff to do it. But because there's so much you've done at such a young age. I know it's totally changing now for women and girls in climbing thankfully, and even your team experience is a good example of that. I think more in the past, we’d end up climbing with our boyfriends or with someone who leads more, and as women in my generation, we often did not get time to lead enough. It seems like that was sort of pivotal for the next phase of your climbing, is just to have, thankfully, survived the early, sometimes reckless leading ragdoll experience in the chimney. But that's pretty powerful, just to have that experience and be sort of forced into it opening your eyes without serious injury!
Brette: Yeah, I put myself in these positions that were fairly dangerous, and I know a lot of people do that, but you do learn by taking risks. You learn what not to do as long as you don't mess up. Like, yeah, it's a gamble.
You don't know, like, I could have fallen and I could have maybe died, but I didn't. And then I realized never to do that again. It's like an experience that I won't forget. It moved me. It scared me. And then I learned about that.
And then slowly, I started collecting more and more experiences that kind of showed me those limitations, and it started to form this boundary. And then I learned how to expand that boundary and grow. But what you were saying about, like, a lot of women climb with their boyfriends, I think I was really lucky growing up, because both of my parents were, like, they did not show any differences between the way that they treated my sister and I versus my brother. Like, we were all the same. We were all forced into, like, mountain biking at an early age. And they were really athletic, my parents.
They were out running in the mountains and water skiing. And we all started water skiing super early, too. And I never saw there to be much of a difference between men and women in athletics, especially since I was by far the most competitive one out of all of us. And then when I moved to British Columbia, I started climbing with Marc André, and he also didn't have this gender bias. And so I was really lucky with the people in my life who just treated me for who I was. Like, Marc always took me for who I was in my skill sets, in my mental capacity versus judging me based on gender.
But I do see that a lot with friends. Like, they get put down or discouraged because people judge them for who they are. And it happens to me all the time now.
But I think my base and the people that I surrounded myself with early on created and helped create this strong base for me. So when I see it, I'm like, what? Are you serious? Like the other day, this is kind of silly, but the other day I was in a gym climbing with my sister and she was climbing with a friend who I'd never met before and he didn't know who I was. And
he was sort of new to climbing and he was taking his belay test. And I'm really strict with the way I belay, especially with my sister.
She's sort of scared of heights and I just want her to have a good belay. And so I was giving him some pointers. I'm like, hey, take in this slack as she's moving up.
And he looks at me and he's like, don't worry. Like, I won't do anything to put your sister in harm. And I just said to him, yeah, but there's ways to perfect your belaying.
And I'm giving you tips on how to perfect. Like, it doesn't matter that she wouldn't get hurt if she fell, it matters that you are being the best belayer you can be.
And so I was like telling him pointers and he didn't know who I was. So he's like, who is this girl giving me tips? And then I think he watched me climb and he's like, oh, okay. So yeah, there's just a...
Jeannie: It's frustrating that we have to prove ourselves before being respected, though, you know?
Brette: I know.
Jeannie: And I don't know if you have any advice on that front for everyone who encounters that, because I know tons of women still encounter really weird behavior at the crag. And that's what is so interesting in sharing all these stories, is just trying to find this common ground between us and figure out of how do we elevate to a level of equal respect? I mean, obviously, it's so cultural and it's gender bias and it's going to take time. But sometimes it's like, do you confront them, you know, with a little harsher kind of reality? Or do you just kindly sort of be an example like you were, but then you had to be the example for him to wake up, you know?
Brette: Yeah. I was pretty strict on him and she was like, thank you, there was so much slack building up. And I'm not going to let some Gumby belay my sister, not like in the perfect way. Come on. Yeah. I wish that there was a better way for people to just be more receptive to criticism too, because I wasn't doing it in a mean way.
I was just like, we should all strive to be better. And some people have a shutoff or they get defensive. And I understand, I get defensive in certain circumstances.
But when there's somebody who's clearly more experienced, and they're giving me tips on safety, just be humble about it and accept that you don't know everything, I think that's key. But I don't know how we would overcome that. I think it comes down to the person.
Cat: Yeah, we all had those experiences in gyms and at the crag. I'll never forget this time walking up in little Cottonwood and just stopping to look around in this area. And I was with a girlfriend. And we hadn't even pulled out our book yet or anything. We're just looking around. And this group of guys was like, do you ladies want a top rope on this?
Do we look like we need a top rope? Because thanks so much. Would you offer that to a couple of dudes that walked up? You know, like what?
Brette: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Cat: Who knows if they were really just genuinely thinking they were being nice?
Jeannie: And the reality is they would never say that to a group of guys next to them.
Cat: And it's like, how do you educate and like shut that down without turning it into like a negative interaction? And I don't know. It's hard.
Brette: So I know what you mean. And this has happened to me a bunch also. The way I've always dealt with it is to, I kind of like being underestimated because then when they actually see, it's like it puts them a step back and it kind of makes them feel silly for the way
they treated me. But it's always funny to me when somebody highly underestimates me. But then at least they're not overestimating because I think when you're overestimated, then there's always room to fail versus shocking them and being like, hey, you can't judge somebody, like judging a book by its cover.
Cat: Totally. And like actions speak so much louder than words. Like you just say ‘no thank you’ and go climbing. And they yeah, they realize they underestimated you. Then that's so much more powerful than like having a weird conversation, I think.
Brette: Yeah. What about you, Jeannie?
Jeannie: Well, I mean, I think that I'm in your camp on a totally different level where usually I could do something and then they would see and I wouldn't get confrontational. But I will say like even in Cat's experience, if you were going out that day with your friend to climb 5.8 or 5.12, you shouldn't have to show them, you shouldn't have to be better than them or better than they think you are for them not to make those comments. So I think it's really hard. I get a lot of women who write to us and they want to share stories of, you know, these guys who do this crazy stuff at the crag. And it's very real. And, you know, it's kind of like we don't want to just be negative and get mired in man-hating, because that's a standard sexist behavior we get at the crag.
Certainly not everyone does this, but I do think we're coming to a place now where we should be able to say in a respectful way, hey, you know, maybe step back and think about whether you would have said that to a couple guys next to you, because that feels really sexist. And it feels like you're putting us down as if you don't believe we have any ability here. And that should be regardless of whether we climb 5.8 or 5.13.
Brette: Yeah
Jeannie: You know, we don't deserve that comment. So I think, I don't know, it's kind of time we stepped up a little bit without being agro about it or angry, which is always hard in the moment. I always think of what I really wanted to say the next day!
Cat: Totally. It's hard to not have an emotional reaction in the moment.
Jeannie: Sure. Brette, it sounds like Mark was sort of pivotal for you in terms of your trajectory with Alpinism and kind of where you took climbing. And it's really interesting, and not surprising just having seen the film, that he didn't have any gender bias at all. But did you have women mentors?
It's something I didn't grow up with, really. There were women out there like Lynn Hill doing incredible things, but I just thought they were so far out in the stratosphere for me, that they weren't really ever mentors, you know?
Brette: Yeah. No, I didn't either. Yeah, I felt like I was kind of alone just on this singular path for a long time. And then I met up with Marc, and we were just doing these incredible climbs together, and I learned a lot from Marc. But then, I think soloing was huge, because soloing shows like you're just making every decision for yourself, and it doesn't have anything to do with your partner.
Jeannie: How did you start doing it, or why?
Brette: I started soloing with Marc, actually, alpine climbing. I didn't know this at the time. Marc and I started rock climbing together, and then I got this inspiration to go climbing in the High Sierra one summer.
I was back in Lake Tahoe, and I was looking through a guidebook, and I was like, oh, this looks pretty cool. I should go try alpine climbing. I didn't even realize, it just never crossed my mind to try that.
And I went back to British Columbia, and I talked about it with Marc, and he had tons of experience alpine climbing. That was his base as a kid. Like he would go adventuring in the North Cascades.
And I didn't even know he loved that. And so he was like, let's do it. Let's go alpine climbing. And so we chose this route up the North face of Mount Joffre. And we started out. And as we're hiking up, there was a glacier that we had to cross.
And he was talking to me about analyzing the sun angle and talking about how the sun angle will affect the rockfall and how releasing meltwater will potentially affect the rockfall. And so we were moving super fast, trying to beat the sun to this aspect of the face because we had to cross a gully. And we jumped from the glacier to the wall.
And it felt very dangerous. Like there were looming blocks above us. And we realized that it would be faster and more efficient if we didn't put the rope on.
And he talked to me about it. And I was like, quickly made that decision. Like, yeah, let's just scamper up this bit and put the rope on later when we're in a safer spot.
And we did that. And we were just moving together pretty quickly. And it came to the point where we were fairly safe, but it was still semi-low angle terrain.
And I was like, why don't we just keep climbing until we really feel like we need the rope? And it was so fun. So finally, the rock got steeper, and that's when we put the rope on. And we used that tactic throughout our climbs together. Like whenever it was low angle enough, we would just take the rope off and solo together. And that was my first experience soloing and alpine climbing.
And then...
Cat: And like the first time and those first few times, did you hesitate about it? Was it like a kind of barrier that you had to break through for yourself? Or did it just come pretty naturally for you?
Brette: That came very naturally because it did seem like the safer option.
Cat: Yeah.
Brette: And I'm glad we did it because there was a huge rockfall afterward. We were up on a tower, like six pitches up, and I felt like the mountain was shaking. It felt like an earthquake. It was so scary. And a massive rockfall slid down the gully and took out the glacier below that we had crossed earlier. It was so eye-opening.
We topped out, and then there was a storm. And we rappelled and hiked out super fast. And it was just like this really exciting day.
But years later, that mountain, the entire north face of Mount Joffre slid off and created like five kilometers of debris. So we realized we had felt a slip in the mountainside. I felt like it was an earthquake. And there's a little thread online Marc had written about it after the rockfall occurred that people re-found. And it's just crazy that we had been there at that time. Yeah.
But it did seem, let's get back to soloing. Soloing definitely felt like the safer option, and it was low-angle enough. We weren't going to fall.
And then over time, I started pushing that into steeper terrain. Or I gravitated toward crack-climbing because you're locked in. And I was always crack-climbing in Squamish, so I felt really comfortable with it.
And then it was Marc who put this idea in my mind where he asked me when is the last time you fell in a 5.10 crack? And I could not think of a time in my recent years that I'd fallen on 5.10 cracks. So we started soloing regularly all the 5.10 cracks.
And I think in a way, it was kind of silly that I had this almost invincible feeling because I could have fallen. You never know when you're not going to fall, and I should have taken it more seriously, I think. But I didn't take it as seriously as I probably should have. I felt like it was the right thing to do.
Jeannie: Do you think, Brette, was Marc doing that because encouraging that would help you guys be faster on harder routes in the mountains? I'm curious because I don't solo rock, but when I'm in the alpine, there's times where I'm super comfortable soloing stuff because I need to move fast, right? And it's usually more moderate terrain, obviously, but I had friends who got really injured falling in a couloir in the Sierra.
They were all roped up with no gear, thinking that was safer. And of course, that's when I learned I'm never roping up unless I have pro in, in the mountains, or, because otherwise it's better and you're safer to solo. You'll be one person getting hurt, not two. But you put that switch to rock, and that’s super interesting to me because I met you in Patagonia, and you ended up soloing Chiaro di Luna.
Brette: Right.
Jeannie: And that's just mind boggling to me, because there are so many objective hazards there too, and you were able to keep your head, and you wanted to do that. There's something in you that was like, no, I want this experience. But was Marc encouraging that so you guys could move faster on harder terrain, or just because he thought there's a beauty in being able to be confident and do that?
Brette: He thought it was beautiful. He loved soloing, and he saw that I liked it too, and he wanted to share that experience with me. We would go team solo these huge mountains and just have such a great day.
I remember we team soloed Chiaro di Luna before I fully soloed it. Which was a cool day because he wanted to be sure I was ready for it, instead of on-site soloing that because it's such a serious objective. I have these images of Mark chimneying or kneebarring in the upper chimneys, hands off, and it's steep up and drops below him. We had so much fun soloing together.
We soloed Mount Colonel Foster, a route called Into the Mystic. It's on Vancouver Island, and it's 10 or 11 pitches, but pretty technical. It was a technical free solo to on sight, and we did that one together.
And since then, I've talked to a couple of friends. I know Will Stanhope went back and did it, and he's like, what? This thing is crazy.
But I think we just really enjoyed the freedom of moving efficiently together and also appreciated each other's abilities to assess terrain and assess our own body. I never think he would have ever suggested anything that I wouldn't be capable of. So he could free solo harder routes than I could.
Jeannie: And did you ever get in a place where you were soloing and you were thinking, ooh, bad assessment? Because I think it's super helpful to those of us who don't do a lot of soloing or people who want to start soloing younger, to understand that you've put in your miles, you put in your time to be in a place where you could assess something and know that it was far below your max grade and you could solo it safely.
Brette: The best thing for me was to get familiar with the rock type so I would understand what to expect, especially if I hadn't been on a pitch.
But I did get myself into a very scary situation once. After that climb, I took a huge step back from rock soloing. Iit was in 2016 and I was in Calaveras Dome, California, and I went to solo Sands of Time. Do you know that route?
Jeannie: Yes, I've been on it.
Brette: It's a beautiful climb, maybe 10 pitches. I went up with Francois Lebeau. He wanted to photograph it. So we went up and I would climb a pitch, fix it, and then solo it. And the first seven pitches were beautiful cracks, and it worked out really well. But we kind of ran out of time, and so we rappelled.
And the next day, I decided I would just go back and finish it, because I only had a couple more pitches to do. And I didn't realize how technical the slabs were going to be. So after the first seven pitches, it turns to just friction slab.
And I was so high up, and I had to make this decision, either down climb the seven pitches that I'd just done, which I know I could have done it, but it was so far to down climb. I could slip. And the mental fortitude you need to put yourself in that situation, for that amount of time, felt like that was also dangerous, the time frame that I would need to down climb all those pitches.
Jeannie: You had no rope with you to rap or anything?
Brette: No, I was just completely free soloing. I could commit to these next two pitches, and I saw an escape ramp that I could get off on. And I think I had my phone in my pocket because I had the topo with me.
So I was assessing, I had just two decisions, and I decided it would be safer to go up, and then I couldn't see the bolts. It's super run out and rarely climbed and kind of mossy. And as the rock trended left, it got slightly lower angle but no holds.
And then as it went further right, it got steeper, but I could see knobs. And I decided to climb directly up the middle and try and use knobs with my right hand and friction slab with my left hand. And that is definitely the closest I've personally felt to falling.
And when I finished that pitch, I was like, wow, okay. That was probably a really bad call on my end to commit to doing a slab route like that. I just didn't analyze the topo well enough. And yeah, I felt a lot of fear in me, and I had to keep pushing it down. And while I was on the climb, I knew it was there, and if I let it arise, it would distract me from my focus. And so I just kept my focus, laser focused as I moved up the pitch.
And I think it was eye-opening to be there and feel that.
Cat: Do you have specific tactics that you use to deal with fear? I have some breathing practices that I'll use, and I'm curious if you have a toolbox for moments like that.
Brette: Well, with that one, I just needed to get through that pitch. And so I just kept moving, and I was making sure every motion was good.
But usually with sport climbing, if I feel scared, the most important thing for me is to breathe. And I try to lower my heart rate, especially if it's really, really run out. I need to stop and lower my heart rate, because I think the physiological response to stress is to over-grip, and then you're more likely to fall.
So if you can relax your mind, you can relax your body, and then be able to make good decisions. So that's what I do when I have the time, but I don't think I used that tactic on that specific climb. I was more in survival mode, just push everything down and get through it. What are your tactics? What do you use?
Cat: Well, in nursing school I learned this breathing technique called the square breath. You inhale for four counts, hold for four counts, exhale for four, hold for four. It tones the vagus nerve and slows the heart rate. And it gives you something else to focus on too. And it takes some time, it's not a fast technique that works quickly. But I use that in climbing, and I use it in critical care nursing, and it's my go-to.
Brette: Okay, that sounds like a really good one. I do some guiding, so I should talk to my clients about that.
Cat: I used it in guiding too and I found that a lot of clients had never really been in situations where they even needed to think about how to deal with fear, or where they'd even thought about the physiological part of fear, and how it makes their bodies suddenly just not work, how it is to feel paralyzed. So it would be really interesting to see if you found that it was helpful with your clients.
Brette: I think it's really important to bring yourself back with a breathing technique. Do you do that, Jeannie?
Jeannie: I actually have a vasovagal nerve thing that is kind of scary, because I can pass out really easily if I have a blow to my head, if the blood rushes away from my head. It used to happen more often until I learned a breathing technique. I hold my breath when I think I might pass out. I did not know the square technique, but I'll try that, Cat.
But I was thinking of a friend a long time ago in Joshua Tree, who was on an easy route, and she kind of freaked out and I was yelling up to her. And this relates to how I think of you and all this stuff that you've done that's so far out there that sometimes seems improbable to me. You grew up with all this confidence.
And I yelled to her and I said ‘you've got this’. You can totally do this, it’s below your grade. Just keep your head, be confident.
And she did and finished it just fine. And I think sometimes for me, there's a physiological response that the breathing can help, but it's also such a mental thing. If I get in a pickle and I'm starting to get scared I try to calm my mind and tell myself I can do it.
Brette: Yeah.
Jeannie: And so part of it is you have to finish and I have to convince myself that I’ve got this, I can do this. Like slow your breathing down but be confident. And I think if you’re up on the Nose (I think that’s your latest big project, to free the Nose) and there's some run out sections that are scary and you wouldn't want to fall, you do this.
You've got this inner confidence from all your years and all your experience and all your training. But are there times when you still have to remind yourself ‘Okay, I've got this, I can do this. I'm going to get it’? Because how else are you going to get through it?
Brette: Some days, I don't have that confidence. And it's very, very challenging because I can have completely irrational fear hit me too, where the dangers are very low, but I'm still not there mentally. And I know every day is different, but I can feel it in the morning, whether I slept or not. I think it really has to do with sleep and nutrition and so many other factors. But I can also tell if I'm strong mentally. And I don't think that's super wise when you're going into the mountains to carry that extra confidence because objective hazards add an entire different element to the equation. But when it comes to simple environments like rock climbing, I think you can take that confidence and use it strategically.
Jeannie: In alpine, being humble is for sure the number one thing. And yet you also have to keep it together. So you have to have a lot of confidence.
The level you were doing things with Marc who hung out there so much. In one sense, I shouldn't say it like that, because I also feel like he was so crazy attuned and intuitive about his abilities and when he took things into that realm.
And so I shouldn't say he hung it out there, because probably in his mind, he was never hanging it out there. And I think that came through in the film for me. That was really inspiring, right? That he trained himself. I guess I'm curious how that all built up your abilities and confidence, and then also what happened, sadly, when he passed and how you felt about the mountains.
Brette: With Marc, I think we had pretty similar levels of self-assessment. We had a similar philosophy on being realistic with our abilities. We talked about it a lot. He kind of knew what I was capable of, and I knew what he was capable of. So I couldn't put my risk assessments onto his projects, because I was just not as good as he was.
He was so good at all sorts of climbing. And I'm going on a tangent here. What were we talking about?
Jeannie: We were back to that place, basically, of what do you do with fear? And some of it is making sure you're prepared. Also, I was kind of going off on a tangent. We've all lost a lot of friends, but we love the mountains, and it's our passion.
And you want to find a place to come back to being confident in the mountains, even though friends and partners and loved ones have passed in some of those circumstances they couldn't control.
Brette: Well one thing is that hormones play a huge role, and it's a huge disadvantage to be a woman. Our hormones are so crazy. And to have to deal with that, I used to feel like 40 percent of the time, I was just in this slump, and I couldn't think clearly, I just didn't feel well.
Obviously, I'm still dealing with all of that, but I've had more time to adjust to my levels, whereas men go through their hormone cycle every day. So they have such a stable assessment on what's right, what's wrong, how they should be feeling. It's way more in line.
And even making medical assessments for women, when we sometimes have no idea where we're at in our cycle, you can decide why you're performing in a certain way. But it's very frustrating. For example, I had a really great day yesterday and I know that I'm in a perfect in line moment in my cycle that happens every four weeks. I'm like, how did it hit that day?
I want that to be the day all the time and I think it's just luck. It comes down to luck. And then I know that next week or a couple weeks, I'll probably be in a different place mentally, and I'll have to deal with it.
Cat: Have you gotten better at planning around your cycle, or have you found ways to regulate your hormones more?
Brette: Yeah, a little bit of both. I have an IUD, which has made so much of a difference for me. I did that in 2020, and I think it stabilizes my hormones and at least I don't have any pain and bleeding and all of that.
So it’s been amazing for me. I know that there are a lot of negative side effects to any kind of contraceptive, but for me, it has been really great. I hope it's not going to cause me cancer down the line, you never know.
I had a crazy experience this fall, and I'm still sort of having repercussions from it. So my partner started taking testosterone because his levels were lower than they should have been. But he needed to take less. He took too much. And I started feeling that, and it disrupted my hormones. I felt out of sorts for three months and I didn't recognize that. I was absorbing some of this extra testosterone. I hated it. It was awful.
Jeannie: How did you feel it?
Brette: I was super emotional, kind of irritated and agitated. I didn't feel confident. All of my confidence completely disappeared. I don't know how it exactly affected my hormone cycle, but I knew my hormones were off and I didn't recognize what it was from. I was trying to see a doctor because nothing was right with me. Everything seemed off. I think it was late November and my partner decided he didn't need it, that it wasn't doing him well but he didn't tell me that he had stopped doing it. It was around that time that I started feeling better. I climbed with Jeannie in Bozeman and I was feeling good. I'm like, okay, here we go. I'm starting to feel in the flow. So sometime in December he told me that he had stopped taking it and I thought, that is so bad for me. Please don't do that again or do it in a more controlled way. That was pretty crazy and it made me realize how sensitive I am to these hormonal fluctuations. I didn't think ‘now I'm paying attention to endocrine disruptors’. I don't want to get back in that place. It was really low confidence.
Jeannie: I love that we're talking about this. I love that you bring it up. I think they just don't do any studies on women. We have so little knowledge of how our hormones affect us, the fact that his hormones affected your hormones. I think of all the times for so many women I know, and myself, sometimes you're at the crag and you're with a guy who's maybe high testosterone level or something. Sometimes I think, I'm not going to lead. I'm not going to try. It's almost like that's why I always encourage women to climb with women, because when I finally started having women partners, it changed everything in terms of my confidence. Maybe a lot of that is the good hormones we have for each other.
Cat: And look at how women's cycles will sync up when they're around each other often. That's a classic example of how we can take on each other's hormone cycles without sharing any sort of medications or bodily fluids. We just sink into each other's hormones. It's crazy.
Brette: I know. That's what I was talking to my partner about, because he said there's no way I was absorbing this. And I used that reference of living with women. It’s known that we do this.
Jeannie: Chantelle and Jewel and I were at base camp on Huntington and Chantelle and I were weeks away from getting our cycle. Then Jewel got her cycle and then the two of us got our cycle, and we had nothing with us. We were like, this is insane. But I'm laughing too about your ‘send’ the last few days and how you are hormonally in this really confident place because when I Nordic raced, it's so funny, I used to cramp and pass out. So the last thing I wanted was to have that happen on a race day. But then I’d have a race day the day after I’d start my cycle or half day before. It was not my biggest day bleeding, it had barely started. I'd have all this extra oxygen carrying capacity with the blood build up, and I would be on fire.
I realize why people blood dope and do stuff in the Nordic world and in the endurance world. And if we all keep talking about this and pay attention to it or find our way with it, with climbing and sending, you can choose your days. Which is really nice.
But it's super real that we rub off on each other. It has a huge effect on our climbing, and in the alpine climbing world, I think that's the hardest because you can't time it.
Brette: And big wall climbing too.
Jeannie: I mean, I joke about stuffing wool socks down my pants, stuck in a storm on the plateau on Mount Logan because I didn't have anything with me and I didn't know I was going to get stuck so long up there. I had to crevasse my socks on the way down. And my two guy tent mates during our five day storm, were like, oh my God, the scent in here is a little different now!
It's like we're stronger than men in most ways. You know what I mean? We kind of have to be in order to do a lot of what we're doing, I think of this in many contexts because we have other stuff constantly affecting us at different times that they never have to deal with.
Brette: And then with women who do competitive sports, like what you were saying with Race Day, all these other female competitors, you have no idea where they're at in their cycle. And so it just doesn't even seem fair. It's like, unless everybody was on the same point, and then you could really judge.
But yeah, it doesn't work that way. So we just do it.
Cat: I don't know if throughout a season, maybe it averages out. But yeah, on any given race day, yeah, it couldn't possibly be fair.
Jeannie: You kind of said you stepped back from soloing after that one point on Sands of Time. Do you still feel that soloing plays a role for you, and it's really fulfilling to move forward? Or have you moved to these projects now that you're doing like the Nose or other things where that's more fulfilling for you?
Brette: So I go through phases of my passion or my vision, and it changes all the time. So after Marc passed away, I just went deep into alpine climbing for four years. He passed away in 2018, and I just dove heavy into alpine climbing.
Jeannie: I want to ask you though, that's not the reaction I thought you would, I mean, I think most of us would think you would step back from it. So what was it, did in order to feel him closer to you, is that what you, why you went more into it or what was the impetus?
Brette: Yeah, he and I spent so much time in the alpine together, and that winter before he passed away, my passion was really high for it. Like we had all these projects, I felt like I had learned a lot, and I was finally into a good flow of it. And then we were ticking off all of our biggest projects, like this huge ice climb in Lillua that hadn't come in, we got the second ascent of, and then this project near Mount Slesse, that was my winter mixed climbing project. And there were a couple of others that we had just been bouncing. Oh yeah, this one on Ledge Mountain and Squamish. And so when he passed away, we were at the peak of our winter pursuits, and the drive was high.
And I felt like, for one, I just wanted to keep that going. I just, I wanted to keep it going for both he and I. It would be a loss for the both of us.
Yeah, and so I just, I did it for both of us. I just kept finding winter. I traveled further east as the coast got warm, I just went over to Camorra, and started moving into the higher mountains, and kept the alpine going.
And then when it finally got warm enough there, I moved up to Alaska, and I spent the summer in Alaska, and just seeked out alpine climbing as much as I possibly could. I didn't want the winter to end. I felt like he was becoming further away in time.
And by keeping that winter there, I was not letting him slip away. There were a lot of reasons why I did what I did, but also just the skills that I had learned from him, I didn't want to lose. I wanted to take advantage of everything that I had learned over time.
And I definitely felt like I was skilled. I had learned a lot of skills from him, just about navigating terrain and moving through the mountains, and improvising with different texture. So if the ice was poor, I could switch into my rock mode, and just always switching between my skills, and then being efficient with descending.
And I remember in Alaska, I put up this huge route with a friend on an ice cap, and we did 25 rappels throughout the night. And we just had a handful of pitons, and I navigated most of the descent. He, my partner, did some of the rappels too, but I felt like I was tapping into Mark Andre's technical skills, and I loved that.
I just loved leading the descent through the night, and finding smart anchors using very minimal gear, so that we'd have enough to get down. And yeah, I just find it all interesting, like making sure that you plan appropriately, so that you're light enough on the way up, so that you're fast enough to do the ascent in the amount of time that you have supplies for. So if I brought 30 or 40 pitons, I would definitely have enough pitons to rappel, but I would be so heavy going up, I'd be too slow to even get to the top.
And so managing that, that only comes with experience. And I felt like I had gathered a lot of experience at the point of his passing.
That's a real gift. Yeah.
But in doing that, I stopped rock climbing. I didn't rock climb for a lot of years there, and I lost a lot of my rock climbing skills. So I alpine climbed for a solid two years, and then I switched to ski mountaineering, and I did like an alpine ski mountaineering mix, and I met up with Christina. Christina and I started skiing together a ton, and I found that super engaging. It was a different type of physical pursuit, a lot of endurance, and she is so hardcore. She used to go out every single day, maybe take one day off a week, but doing massive days of full cardio. It’s hard work. And to keep up with Christina, you have to be at peak fitness. For me, I do, because she is so fit.
And I found that a really cool challenge, and her vision for the mountains was so different and unique, and I learned a lot, so she was my first female mentor. So we joined forces, and my alpine skills were what she was desiring. She wanted to learn more about technical alpinism, and I wanted to learn more about technical skiing.
And so we skied together for a couple years, and that was awesome. And then slowly my focus shifted, it was right after COVID, and I decided to go on this spontaneous trip to Yosemite with Anna Pfaff. We went back to Yosemite, and I had not big wall climbed in four years, and we decided to go up El Corazon. A hard aid route that has also been freed on El Capitan.
And on a reconnaissance mission, it sparked the flame in me, and I really, really wanted to get back into big wall climbing. That was 2021.
So in 2021, I shifted. I started shifting away from alpinism and started to focus on rock again. And then that fall I went back to Yosemite and sent El Corazon. But then in winter, I went back to British Columbia.
So I kept skiing with Christina. And then we went to Baffin Island and my skiing was pretty peak at that point. And we did this really cool ski line.
And after Baffin I wanted to start focusing on rock again, and that came down to sport climbing. I saw this huge void in my skill set. I've never been able to focus on sport climbing and see how hard I can climb.
People always told me like, if I just focused on it, I could get really, really good. But I'm always changing up my style. So I never gave myself the space to do that.
And so that's what I'm doing right now. Which is a big trade-off for me, because I miss the mountains, and I felt so good climbing in Bozeman. When I was in Bozeman with you this December, I easily could have just spun my entire winter plans and headed north. I was on that point, and Christina's like, come north, come skiing, and she's telling me all her plans. And I'm like, oh my gosh, that is so tempting. I'm in the right headspace for it. I felt good climbing with you, and I was like, I should do it. But I'm trying to stay focused on my rock climbing goals here. So that's where I'm at right now.
Jeannie: I could see that spark, and it was really fun for me to feel that from you.
Brette: You've been going through this too, right?.
Jeannie: Oh yeah. I need to focus on sport climbing so that I can up my power rock game. So it's super inspiring to me that you’re willing to give up something you love so much to pursue your goal. I saw your love and passion for winter in the mountains and you’re not giving it up, but let's say, putting it on hold for a bit, and looking at this bigger goal that you have.
And without question, you'll come back to the mountains, and it'll only help you. But at the time we were ice climbing, I was like, Brette, let's go to Canada!
Brette: I know.
Jeannie: But it really is inspiring that you have a goal, and that you're on it, and that's what you want to do. We talked about how you’re basically spending a year inside.
Brette: Yeah.
Jeannie: But to reach your goal, as Brittany Gorris is also pursuing something similar (in our last podcast) she admitted that the mental health trade-off of so much time inside was not good, but she's powering through. I admire so much what you’re both doing. And I have no doubt you'll send the Nose, and you'll be back in the mountains doing bigger Alpine objectives. And it's really cool.
I think it's helpful to see this focus in you, because you like doing all those different disciplines, and in your case, you're so good at all of them. It would be hard to choose and let go of them, especially with the seasons.
Brette: It is, yeah, it is really hard for me. And sometimes I wonder if I'm making the wrong decision. When you have the following your heart feeling, I've always followed that. And so that's what's always driven me. It's like, oh, I kind of want to go, or I see where I can learn and grow, and that's where I take myself. And I can see that I haven't been skiing enough in the past two years to keep my ski level there, and I want to go back there. But I also have so much to grow from in rock climbing. And I'm making progress. In the past couple of days, I'm starting to feel really strong. So I think I'm making my choice.
Cat: Following your heart is almost always aligned with where you see potential for growth.
Brette: Kind of, yeah. In the past, that's how it's been.
In 2016, I was big wall climbing in Chile on Torre Central on Riders on the Storm. It was a really stormy year and we ended up having to mix climb our way up the face. We didn't make it all the way, these hard 5.12 pitches were covered in ice.
So the skills we needed to get up them were just to make use of everything we had. And I remember ice climbing this chimney, I had my crampons and boots on, but then rock climbing on the face and placing pitons. And after that, I wanted to dive into winter because I realized I didn't have enough experience winter climbing, and I wanted to be efficient at ice climbing. I wasn't a very good ice climber back then because I was still really new to it. And I wanted to be able to get up anything and do it with confidence. That's why I really started alpine climbing.
Cat: Well, I am curious, Brette, before we run out of time, I guess I would like to hear more, if you're willing to share, about dealing with grief in the mountains and how you dealt with grief after losing Marc-Andre and how you continue to deal with it. And whether you found going into the mountains as the way to deal with it, or if you found groups like Mountain Muscox or anything like that. Like what got you through the core of that time and what continues to support you through dealing with that?
Brette: I think everybody will deal with grief in their own way. But what I experienced through losing Marc was that I had zero capacity to give energy to anybody else. My bowl of energy was completely empty, and so I became selfish, but I needed that.
I had nothing to give to anybody else, and my selfishness was for me to just constantly be in the mountains. I didn't care what anybody else did or thought. I just needed to give that to myself. But I think other people will dive into things that they're comfortable with or familiar with, whether it’s anything that they love. For me, that time was just being in the mountains. That's why I chose that, because it made me feel calm.
I wanted the most extreme situations too. I felt super apathetic during that time about everything. I was just so distraught.
I mean, I wanted to feel the grief as deep as I could. I didn't want to suppress it at all. So every time I'd come out of the mountains, I was just a complete mess.
I was crying constantly, hyperventilating. I couldn't control it. I fully embraced this total absorption into grief.
But then, going into the mountains forced me out of that. It forced me to focus in the present because I was doing these big climbs that required 100% of my mental focus. I was able to kind of center in on what I was doing, and nothing else in life was giving that to me. So that's really what helped me get through those couple of years. It was years for me to feel okay. Like I didn't feel joy for so long.
Even when I topped out the mountains, it wasn't a joyful top out. It was just kind of apathy. In 2020, I climbed a new line on Torre Egger, and that was incredible.
He'd passed away in 2018. It had been two years, and I started to feel that joy again. And topping out on Torre Egger was the coolest top out I've ever done.
I got to dig the tunnel through the summit mushroom, and Mark had told me these stories because Mark had climbed Cerro Torre and Torrey Egge and Torre Sandhardt. He dug the tunnel, and I had seen photos that he and his partner had taken, and I couldn't believe that I was in that position. It would have been like a dream of mine.
And so I did that, and we completed this line that was his vision. He talked to me about wanting to try it. He saw it when he was soloing Torre Egger, and that climb was really special. I felt like it was exactly what I needed to do. I had the right motivation for it and the right partner for it.
Cat: So another question I have is, a good friend of mine very recently lost her partner in the mountains. Do you have advice for me on how I can best support her?
Brette: Maybe, I don't know, because everyone's so different. I guess just make sure that she knows you're there for her and to respect the spot that she's in. I think the worst thing somebody did to me was bail on me during that time, right when he passed away.
I couldn't believe that this person would bail on me. I was so distraught anyway. So just be the best friend you can be.
And she might need space. I don't know what she needs, but yeah, maybe ask her.
Cat: It's interesting, and makes total sense, to hear you say that your capacity for other people in that time was so limited. I think that's good especially for a friend to know that.
Jeannie: I also really appreciate, Brette, that you articulated so well how different we are in dealing with grief, that some of us need to go back into the mountains, and that that focus and that place helps you heal. And I think it's so easy to judge, whether ourselves or our friends, when something happens, like an avalanche or a climbing death. I think it’s giving each other the space, like you said, and being there for each other and for yourself.
You are confident enough to have followed your heart. You're like, this is what I needed, and I'm not going to listen to what people are saying or judging me for. They might think I'm being crazy and dangerous to be back in the mountains, but this is my best space to heal. And I love that because it's a really hard thing to not pass judgment on different people and mostly ourselves when stuff like this goes down. And we've all had it happen. That's a beautiful story of your healing that makes me happy that you could do that and you could come through it and get closer to him, but also heal yourself. And coming back to following your heart. I do think your question of that in your training with rock climbing right now, what you're doing to give up winter, it's a good thing to keep that little thing back there reminding you. Because I feel from just our limited talks of your goals right now, that there is a joy in it for you, and it's really hard work, and you're giving up a lot. But I think as long as that joy comes through, you're still following your heart to be where you are. And when we do something and we put our heads down, it's really hard.
I guess what we don't want to do is do that for someone else or do that for, I feel like whenever we do it for some other reason other than what we really feel is the right thing, then we're not following our hearts, right? But it's just super inspiring to me to hear it's still worth giving up a lot if that's a goal that means enough to you. But it's got to be hard to feel that at the time when you're sitting in Vegas in the middle of winter, although sometimes we’re envious you're sitting in the sun when we're sitting in a wet snowstorm!
Brette: Yeah.
Jeannie: Thanks so much for sharing everything, Brette. It's really inspiring.
Brette: Yeah. Nice chatting with you guys. Thanks for the good one.
Jeannie: That's awesome.Way to go on your sends.That's exciting.
Brette: Thank you, thank you.
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